Testimony of Philip Goldman, Former Employee,
Central Intelligence Agency
Mr. GOLDMAN. I
am Philip Goldman.
Senator INOUYE. And you are a
former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency?
GOLDMAN. Over 10 years ago.
INOUYE. And you were employed at the time when MKULTRA was in
Mr. GOLDMAN. There were some MKULTRA's
in operation at the time I was there.
INOUYE. And Mr. John Gittinger, are you a former employee of the
Central Intelligence Agency?
Testimony of John Gittinger, Former Employee, Central Intelligence
Mr. GITTINGER. I
Senator INOUYE. Are you still an
Senator INOUYE. Were you a member of the
Agency at the time MKULTRA was in operation?
Senator INOUYE. Thank
you. Senator Kennedy.
KENNEDY. I want to welcome both of you to the committee.
If we could start with Mr. Goldman. Were you the project engineer for the
safe houses in either San Francisco or New York?
GOLDMAN. I know of no safe house in San Francisco.
Senator KENNEDY. How about in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew of one facility that was
established there, but I didn't know anything of its operation.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you a monitor on any
testing of drugs on unwitting persons in San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
KENNEDY. Well, we have a classified document here that was
provided by the Agency that lists your name as a monitor of the program
and I would appreciate it if you would look--
GOLDMAN. I think the misunderstanding arises because I was
Senator KENNEDY. Well, would you
take a look at that?
[Mr. Goldman inspected the document.]
Mr. GOLDMAN. This document as it states is
correct. However, my--
Senator KENNEDY. That
document is correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I see
on the first page, the project. But my--
KENNEDY. Well, could I get it back, please.
indicate that you were a monitor of the program.
GOLDMAN. I was in charge of disbursing the moneys to Morgan Hall.
Senator KENNEDY. To whom was that?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the individual whose name was
listed at the top of that document.
KENNEDY. And you knew that he was running the project in San
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew he was the person
who was in charge out there.
Senator KENNEDY. All
Mr. GOLDMAN. But I had no knowledge nor
did I seek knowledge of actually what he was doing, because there would be
other things involved.
I did receive--
KENNEDY. What were you doing?
GOLDMAN. I was collecting -- I had to be sure that all the
receipts that ever were turned in balanced with the moneys that were paid
out to see that everything was run all right. There was no illegal use of
funds as far as we could determine by the receipts and
Senator KENNEDY. So even though the Agency
document indicates that you were a monitor for the program, one of the few
monitors of that particular program which you mentioned for San Francisco
and Mill Valley, Calif., you described your responsibility only as a
carrier of money, is that correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I
would say as a disburser or carrying out -- seeing that the moneys were
handled properly. There was within that -- I don't know what's done or
what he did do in conjunction with other people.
KENNEDY. Were you responsible for the disbursement of all the
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was responsible for turning
over the check to him.
Senator KENNEDY. And what
did you know of the program itself?
The only thing I knew of the program was what he furnished us in terms of
receipts and that sort of thing. I didn't indulge or concern myself in
Senator KENNEDY. You still wrote, and I'll
let you examine it -- it's a classified document -- but you wrote a rather
substantive review of the program in May of 1963, talking about the
experiments, the factual data that had been collected, covert and
realistic field trials, about the necessity of those particular -- and
talked about the effectiveness of the various programs, the efficiency of
various delivery systems. That doesn't sound to me like someone who is
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, if you would refresh my
memory, if I could read this I would certainly agree with whatever is said
there, if it was written.
Senator KENNEDY. I am
trying to gather what your role was. You've indicated first of all that
you didn't know about -- you knew about a safe house in New York; now we
find out that you're the carrier for the resources as well and the agent
in San Francisco. We find out now that the CIA put you as a monitor.
You're testifying that you only were the courier, and here we have just
one document, and there are many others that talk about the substance of
that program with your name on it and I am just trying to find out exactly
what role you were playing.
Mr. GOLDMAN. The only
thing I can tell you about this and I am drawing completely on my memory
is that this individual who was in charge out there conducted these things
and reported them back to the Agency. I didn't participate in any of them.
All I know was that he furnished me with receipts for things that were
done and told of the work that they had done.
KENNEDY. Well, that document covers more than
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, it tells of what --
they had conducted work out there.
KENNEDY. It describes, does it not? Read the paragraph
Mr. GOLDMAN. "A number of
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you can't read
it, it's a classified document, and I don't know why, quite frankly, but
it relates to the substance
of those programs and
your name is signed to the memorandums on it. I am not interested in you
trying to review for us now what is in the document, but I think it would
be unfortunate if we were left with the opinion that all you were was a
courier of resources when we see a document with your name on it, signed,
that talks about the substance of the program. And what we're interested
in is the substance of the program. We have the recent documents that were
provided by the Agency, which do indicate that you were at least involved
in the substance, and I'm just trying to find out whether you're willing
to tell us about that.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am perfectly
willing to tell you everything that I can remember.
KENNEDY. But you can't remember anything.
GOLDMAN. I can't remember the substantive parts of these, things,
I really can't.
Senator KENNEDY. Of the program
that was taking place.
Do you have any greater familiarity with
what was happening in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No,
Senator KENNEDY. And you have the same
function with regards to New York?
The same function with regard to New York.
KENNEDY. Did you ever go to San Francisco?
Senator KENNEDY. Did you
meet with the agent in charge?
Senator KENNEDY. And why did you meet with
Mr. GOLDMAN. To discuss some of the receipts
and things that were there to find out if these were indeed true
expenditures and to find out if everything was going along all right for
the work that was being done.
What work was being done?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, the
reports of these things and whatever was being done. I don't know who he
reported to but he did report to somebody.
KENNEDY. You travel out there to find out about the work that's
being done, and what does he tell you, that the work is being done well
Mr. GOLDMAN. He told me that the work that
they were doing was going along, progressing satisfactorily, but to be
very frank with you--
Senator KENNEDY. But he
didn't tell you what the work was?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To
be very frank with you, Senator, I cannot remember the things that
happened back in those days. I've been away from the company -- from the
Agency for over 10 years, and that is even farther back than that, and
that was just about the time when I first engaged in this, so it was my
Senator KENNEDY. Did they disburse a
series of $100 checks, to your recollection?
GOLDMAN. I don't recollect it, but if you have it there, then
Senator KENNEDY. Did you know Dr.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
KENNEDY. How did you know Dr. Gottlieb?
GOLDMAN. He had been head of the division when I was
Senator KENNEDY. Did you talk to him
about these programs? Did you have anything to do with him during this
period of time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I didn't have
anything to do with him until I would say probably in the
Senator KENNEDY. And can you tell us what
you had to do with him then?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Just
what you see there, on the papers.
KENNEDY. Well, that is the request for the money and he approves
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is the request for money and
he approves it, and I am quite sure that I probably discussed with him
whether the work was going along all right, whether his reports were being
turned in, and whether he was satisfied with the way things were going and
did he have any complaints about the way other people were requesting him,
but I did not engage myself in anything he was
Senator KENNEDY. Well, did you get the
impression that Gottlieb knew what was going on?
GOLDMAN. I didn't ask.
But you told him that your impression that what was going on even though
you didn't know what was going on, was going on well, I guess?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I told Gottlieb what you
saw in there was that the things appeared to be going along all right. I
was repeating and parroting back the words that were given to me while I
Senator KENNEDY. What was the money
being spent for, do you know?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; I
can't recall that, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Would you
remember if we told you it was red curtains and can-can
Mr. GOLDMAN. No,
Senator KENNEDY. Floral pictures and the
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No,
Senator KENNEDY. Recorders and two-way
Mr. GOLDMAN. Wait, hold on. You're
slipping a word in there now.
Senator KENNEDY. But
you would have authorized those funds, would you not, since you were
Mr. GOLDMAN. Did you say two-way
Senator KENNEDY. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. In the
Senator KENNEDY. San
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
KENNEDY. How about New York?
Senator KENNEDY. You remember now that you
approved expenditures for New York?
Senator KENNEDY. What were
those expenditures for?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That was a
transfer of money over for the use in an apartment in New York by the
Bureau of Narcotics. It was for their use.
KENNEDY. Do you have any knowledge of what was going on in the
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir, other than I know
that it had been used, according to the information that I have been
given, it was used by the Bureau of Narcotics to make meetings with
individuals who they were interested in with regard to pushing dope -- not
pushing dope, but selling narcotics and that sort of
Senator KENNEDY. Well, I am sure you had
many responsibilities and it's a long time ago, but the Agency does
indicate that you were project monitor for that particular
Mr. GOLDMAN. That's
Senator KENNEDY. Your own testimony
indicates you went out to review the expenditures of funds to find out
whether they were being wisely used, that you came back and talked to the
project director, Mr. Gottlieb, to give him a progress report about what
was going on out there.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, sir, I
Senator KENNEDY. All those things are true,
and yet you draw a complete blank in terms of what was the project itself.
That's where the record is now.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I did
not go out there to review the projects nor did I come back and talk with
Mr. Gottlieb and review what I had observed in terms of any projects that
they -- that is, other parts of the Agency might have in operation there.
I simply reported back those things which were told to me by the
individual out there who -- and I carried them back and they -- are
contained in the report that you have in front of you, word for word, just
as it was given to me.
Senator KENNEDY. The report
that you examined here is a substantive report on the particular program
and project. And I don't think anyone who wasn't familiar with the project
-- this is a personal evaluation -- could write a report on the substance
of it without knowing about it. Now, that's mine. Maybe you can't remember
and recollect, and that's--
Mr. GOLDMAN. No;
everything I put down in there is things that I was told while I was out
there, and if there was any ancillary information involved in there I can
tell you I just don't remember that. I really don't.
At the time --
that was some years ago. At the time -- a lot of time has passed since
then and I have made quite sure that if I could recollect it at all, I
would do it. If you have some papers and you want me to certify whether
yes, this is so or that is so, I can do that, but I can't recall it
Senator KENNEDY. You just certified the
principal. There are others up here.
I would like to go to Dr.
Mr. GITTINGER. It's Mr.
Senator KENNEDY. How long did you serve
with the Agency?
GITTINGER. Twenty-six years.
KENNEDY. Excuse me?
Senator KENNEDY. Twenty-six
And at some point you moved into the operational support
side, is that correct?
Senator KENNEDY. And did you know Sidney
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes,
Senator KENNEDY. And did he inform you about
the research projects involving LSD?
GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. It
is my understanding that you were also aware of some of the drug testing
projects conducted on unwitting subjects on the west coast using the
Bureau of Narcotics people in the operation. Is that
Mr. GITTINGER. I was.
INOUYE. Excuse me. Would you speak into the microphone? I cannot
Senator KENNEDY. Do you know which drugs
were involved in those tests?
Mr. GITTINGER. LSD.
And I can't remember for sure much of the others. What is the substance of
marihuana, cannabis, is that right, that can be delivered by other than
Mr. GITTINGER. There had been some
discussion of that; yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And was
heroin also used?
Mr. GITTINGER. Heroin used by
Senator KENNEDY. No. In the west coast
Mr. GITTINGER. Absolutely
Senator KENNEDY. Now, to your knowledge, how
were the drugs administered to the unwitting subjects?
GITTINGER. I have no direct knowledge.
KENNEDY. Why did you go to the safe houses?
GITTINGER. It's a very complicated story. Just in justification
of myself, this came up just, day before yesterday. I have not really had
enough time to get it all straightened in my mind, so I
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you take your time
and tell us in your own words. We've got some time
Mr. GITTINGER. My responsibilities which
would involve any of the period of time that you were talking about really
was not directly related to drugs at all. I was a psychologist charged
with the responsibility of trying to develop as much information as I
could on various cultures, overseas cultures, anthropological type data,
if you follow what I mean. I was also engaged in trying to work out ways
and means of assessing people and understanding people.
originally became involved in this through working on Chinese culture, and
over a series of time I was introduced to the problem of brainwashing,
which is the thing that really was the most compelling thing in
relationship to this, and became charged with the responsibility of trying
to find out a little bit about interrogation techniques.
And among other things,
we decided or I decided that one of the best sources of interrogation
techniques would be trying to locate and interview and become involved
with experienced police interrogators in the country and experienced
people who had real practical knowledge of interrogation. The reason for
this is that we had become pretty well convinced after the experience of
the brainwashing problems coming out of China, that it was the techniques
of the interrogators that were causing the individuals to make confessions
and so forth in relationship to this, rather than any kind of drugging and
so forth. So we were very much interested in interrogation techniques, and
this led to me being introduced to the agent in the west coast, and I
began to talk to him in connection with these interrogation
Senator KENNEDY. OK. Now, that is the
agent that ran the tests on the west coast on the unwitting people. That's
where you come in, correct?
Mr. GITTINGER. If I
understand -- would you say that again?
KENNEDY. The name Morgan Hall has been -- that is the name that
has been used.
Senator KENNEDY. And that is the agent that
you met with.
Mr. GITTINGER. That is
Senator KENNEDY. And you met at the safe
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes,
Senator KENNEDY. Whom did you meet with in
the safe house?
Mr. GITTINGER. This is the part
that is hard for me to say, and I am sorry that I have to. In connection
with some work that we were doing, we needed to have some information on
sexual habits. Morgan Hall provided informants for me, to talk to in
connection with the sex habits that I was interested in trying to find
information. During one period of time the safe house, as far as I was
concerned, was used for just these particular type of interviews. And I
didn't see the red curtains.
Those were prostitutes, were they?
Senator KENNEDY. How many different
times were you there that you had similar--
GITTINGER. I couldn't possibly say with any certainty on that.
Four or five times.
Senator KENNEDY. Four or five
Mr. GITTINGER. Over -- you remember now,
the period that I'm talking about when I would have any involvement in
this is from about 1956 to 1961. So it's about a 4- or 5-year period which
is the only time that I know anything about what you are talking about
Senator KENNEDY. Did Morgan Hall make
the arrangements for the prostitutes to meet with you?
GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Did
the interviews that you had have anything to do with
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, as I tried to explain
earlier when this was being discussed a little bit beforehand, again I
think it is pretty hard for most people now to recognize how little there
was known about drugs at the period of time that we are talking about,
age or the drug culture comes later on. Consequently, those of us who had
any responsibility in this area were interested in trying to get as much
information as we could on the subculture, the subculture drug groups, and
obviously the Bureau of Narcotics represented a means of doing this.
Consequently, other types of things that were involved in discussions at
that time would have to do with the underground use of drugs. When I am
talking about this I am talking about the folkways in terms of unwitting
use of drugs. Did these people that I was talking to have any information
about this and on rare instances they were able to tell me about their
use, and in most cases this would largely turn out to be a Mickey Finn or
something of that sort rather than anything esoteric.
I also was
very much interested because we had relatively little information, believe
it or not, at that time, in terms of the various reactions that people
were having to drugs. Therefore, these people were very informative in
terms of they knew a great deal of information about
Senator KENNEDY. At least you gathered
-- or am I correct in assuming that you gathered the impression that the
prostitutes that you had talked to were able to slip the drugs to people
as I understand it. Did you form any impression on
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly did not form the
impression that, they did this as a rule or--
KENNEDY. But they bad the knowledge.
GITTINGER. They had the knowledge or some of them had had
knowledge of this being done. But again, as it turned out, it was largely
in this area of knockout drops.
Looking back now did you form any impression about how the Agency was
actually testing the broad spectrum of social classes in these safe
houses? With the large disbursal of cash in small quantities, $100 bills
and the kinds of elaborate decorations and two-way mirrors in the bedrooms
and all the rest, is there any question in your own mind what was going on
in the safe houses, or the techniques that were being used to administer
Mr. GITTINGER. I find it very
difficult to answer that question, sir. I had absolutely no direct
knowledge there was a large number of this. I had no knowledge that anyone
other than -- than Morgan Hall was in any way involved in the unwitting
administration of drugs.
Senator KENNEDY. But
Gottlieb would know, would he not?
I believe so, yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Could we
go into the Human Ecology Foundation and talk about that and how it was
used as an instrument in terms of the support of
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes,
Senator KENNEDY. Could you describe it to us?
Could you describe the Human Ecology Foundation, how it functioned and how
Mr. GITTINGER. May I tell something
about how it evolved, which I think is important?
Mr. GITTINGER. The Society
for the Investigation of Human Ecology, so-called, was actually a -- I am
confused here now as to whether I should name you names.
KENNEDY. Well, we're not interested in names or institutions, so
we prefer that you do not. That has to be worked out in arrangements
between Admiral Turner and the individuals and the
But we're interested in what the Foundation really
was and how it functioned and what its purpose was.
GITTINGER. Well, it was established to undertake research in the
general area of the behavioral sciences. It definitely had almost no focus
or interest in, say, drug-related type of activities except in a very
minor way, because it was largely set up to attempt to gain a certain
amount of information and to fund projects which were psychological,
sociological, anthropological in character. It was established in the
sense of a period of time that a lot of us who are in it wish we could do
it over again, but we were interested in trying to get together a panel of
the most representative high-level behavioral scientists we could to
oversee and help in terms of developing the Society for the Investigation
of Human Ecology type of program.
The Agency in effect provided the
money. They did not direct the projects. Now, the fact of the matter is,
there are a lot of innocent people who received the Society for the
Investigation of Human Ecology money which I know for a fact they were
never asked to do anything for the CIA but they did get through this
indirectly. They had no knowledge that they were getting CIA
Senator KENNEDY. Over what period of time
did this take place?
Mr. GITTINGER. As far as I
was concerned , it was the period of time ending in 1961. 1 believe the
Human Ecology fund finally phased out in 1965, but I was not involved in
this phasing out.
Senator KENNEDY. Can you give
the range of the different sort of individual projects of the universities
in which it was active?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it
would have as many as -- I am very fuzzy on my memory on the number of
projects. It is over 10, 20, 30.
After it made the grants, what was the relationship of the Agency with the
results of the studies? The Foundation acquired the money to make the
grants from the Agency, and then it made the grants to these various
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes,
Senator KENNEDY. And that included eight
universities as well as individual researchers?
GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Then what follow-up was there to that, sir?
GITTINGER. Well, in every sense of the word, the organization was
run exactly like any other foundation, and it carried with it the same
thing in terms of making certain that the people that they had given money
to used it for the purpose for which it had been granted, that they had
access to any of the reports that they had put out, but there were no
strings attached to anybody. There wasn't any reason they couldn't publish
anything that they put out.
Senator KENNEDY. What,
sort of budget are we talking about here?
GITTINGER. I honestly do not remember. I would guess we are
talking in the realm of about $150,000 a year, but don't hold me to that,
because I don't know.
KENNEDY. What is your view about such funding as a professional
person, in terms of compromising the integrity of a university,
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, obviously, sir, insofar
as today there is no question about it. I will have to say at the time
that we were doing this there was quite an entirely different kind of an
attitude, and I do know for a fact that we moved to start towards phasing
out the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology and the Human
Ecology Fund for the very reason that we were beginning to recognize that
it was moving into an area but this would be
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is
commendable, both your attitude and the reasons for it, but during that
period of time it still was involved in behavior research programs, as I
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. On its
own, in connection with this, it participated again, and these again were
not CIA-directed projects, but these were all things which would
theoretically contribute to the general knowledge at the time where the
things like the study of the Hungarian refugees -- obviously, the study of
the Hungarian refugees who came to this country after the Hungarian revolt
was a very useful exercise to try to get information about the personality
characteristics of the Communists and so forth.
KENNEDY. Were there other foundations that were doing similar
kinds of work?
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my knowledge,
Senator KENNEDY. You
Mr. GITTINGER. You mean, CIA, other
Senator KENNEDY. Right.
GITTINGER. Well, my answer is in the sense that I know of no
other CIA foundations, no. There were, of course, other foundations doing
similar kinds of work in the United States.
KENNEDY. Have you heard of the Psychological Assessments
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly
Senator KENNEDY. What was that? What
function did that have?
Mr. GITTINGER. Now, this
was bringing us up to a different era. I believe the functions of that
organization have nothing whatsoever to do with the things that are being
talked about here while I was associated with it.
KENNEDY. Rather than getting into the work, it was another
foundation, was it not? It was another foundation supported by the
Mr. GITTINGER. What, the Psychological
Mr. GITTINGER. No, sir, it was
Senator KENNEDY. It did not get any support
at all from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. Oh, yes,
sir. It did get support, but it was a business
Senator KENNEDY. It was a business but it
got support from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. It got
money from it, but it definitely was not in MKULTRA or in any way
associated with this.
KENNEDY. All right. I want to thank you for your helpful
testimony, Mr. Gittinger. It is not easy to go back into the past. I think
you have been very fair in your characterizations, and I think it is quite
appropriately indicated that there are different standards now from what
they were 25 years ago, and I think you have responded very fairly and
completely to the inquiries, and I think with a good deal of feeling about
You are a person who is obviously attempting to serve the
country's interest, so I want to thank you very much for your statement
and for your helpful timeliness.
Thank you, sir.
Senator INOUYE. Senator
Senator CASE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am
sorry that I had another committee that I had to complete the hearing with
this morning before I got here.
I shall read the testimony with
very great interest, and I appreciate your testimony as I have heard it. I
would like to comment just on one point, and that is, it relates to a
story in the press yesterday about part of this program involving the
funding of a grant at a foreign university. I would like to elicit from
you a comment as to the additional sensitivity and difficulty that that
practice involves from your standpoint as a scientist, as well as a
citizen, if you will.
Mr. GITTINGER. I will say it
was after the fact thinking. It was utter stupidity the way things worked
out to have used some of this money outside the United States when it was
CIA money. I can categorically state to my knowledge, and I don't claim a
complete knowledge all the way across of the human ecology functions, but
to my knowledge, and this is unfortunate, those people did not know that
they were getting money from CIA, and they were not asked to contribute
anything to CIA as such.
Senator CASE. It would be
interesting to try to examine this by turning the thing around and
thinking what we would think if this happened from a foreign official
agency to our own university. Thank you, Mr.
Senator INOUYE. Senator
Senator SCHWEIKER. Thank you, Mr.
Dr. Goldman, I wonder if you would tell us what your
training and educational background is?
GOLDMAN. I have already given a biography for the
Senator SCHWEIKER. I have not seen it. Who
has it? Is it classified? We may have it for the record, but may I ask you
to briefly describe your training and background for us now? I hope it is
Dr. GOLDMAN. Well, I was told if I was
asked this to say that. I was told that by your staff people, but I have
no objection to telling you. I am a resident from Pennsylvania, southwest
Pennsylvania, Lancaster County. I went to Penn State, and I am in
Senator SCHWEIKER. In
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were you in charge
of a section or segment of the CIA in your past
Dr. GOLDMAN. During the time I was with
that organization, I was in charge of one small section of it, one small
segment of it; yes.
SCHWEIKER. What was the function or purpose of that section that
Dr. GOLDMAN. To provide support for
the other parts of the division.
SCHWEIKER. Where in the chain of command would that put you in
relation to Dr. Gottlieb?
Dr. GOLDMAN. Pretty far
down the line.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, I
would just like to ask you a few questions. We appreciate your frankness
and candor with the committee, and we realize this is a very difficult
area to go into. I am not quite clear on two matters that were raised
earlier. First, were the safe houses we were talking about here used on
occasion by the prostitutes you referred to?
GITTINGER. I really have not the slightest
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were the prostitutes used
in any way to slip the customers drugs for observation
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my direct
Senator SCHWEIKER. Would you have been
in a position to know the answer to either of these
Mr. GITTINGER. May I say, probably not,
and may I make an aside to explain a little bit of this, please,
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, a moment
ago you mentioned brainwashing techniques, as one area that you had, I
guess, done some work in. How would you characterize the state of the art
of brainwashing today? Who has the most expertise in this field, and who
is or is not doing it in terms of other governments?
Korean war there was a lot of serious discussion about brainwashing
techniques being used by the North Koreans, and I am interested in finding
out what the state of the art is today, as you see it.
GITTINGER. Well, of course, there, has been a great deal of work
on this, and there is still a great deal of controversy. I can tell you
that as far as I knew, by 1961, 1962, it was at least proven to my
satisfaction that brainwashing, so called, is some kind of an esoteric
device where drugs or mind- altering kinds of conditions and so forth were
used, did not exist even though "The Manchurian Candidate" as a Movie
really set us back a long time, because it made something impossible look
plausible. Do you follow what I mean? But by 1962 and 1963, the general
idea that we were able to come up with is that brainwashing was largely a
process of isolating a human being, keeping him out of contact, putting
him under long stress in relationship to interviewing and interrogation,
and that they could produce any change that way without having to resort
to any kind of esoteric means.
Are there ways that we can ascertain this from a distance when we see a
captive prisoner either go on television, in a photograph, or at a press
conference? In other words, are there certain signs that you have learned
to recognize from your technical background, to tell when brainwashing has
occurred? Or is that very difficult to do?
GITTINGER. It is difficult to do. I think it is possible now in
terms of looking at a picture of somebody who has been in enemy hands for
a long period of time. We can get some pretty good ideas of what kind of
circumstances he has been under, if that is what you mean.
SCHWEIKER. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you very
Before adjourning the hearings, I would like to have the
record show that Dr. Goldman and Mr. Gittinger have voluntarily cooperated
with the committee in staff interviews, that they appear this morning
voluntarily, and they are not under subpoena.
Gentlemen, I realize
that this experience may have been an unhappy one and possibly a painful
one. Therefore, we thank you very much for participating this morning. We
also realize that the circumstances of that time differed very much from
this day, and possibly the national attitude, the national political
attitude condoned this type of activity. So, we have not asked you to come
here as persons who have committed crimes, but rather in hope that you can
assist us in studying this problem so that it will not occur once again.
In that spirit we thank you for your participation, and we look forward to
working with you further in this case.
Thank you very
Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I would like
also to thank the witnesses. These are difficult matters, and I think all
of us are very grateful.
Senator SCHWEIKER. I
think the witnesses should know that though it may not always seem that
way, what we are trying to do is to probe the past and look at the
policies of the past to affect the future. I think our emphasis really is
on the future, not the past, but it is important that we learn from the
past as we formulate policies and legislation for the future, I hope that
all of the witnesses who did come before us voluntarily this morning,
including Admiral Turner respect the fact that we are questioning the past
to learn about the future. I think it should be looked at in that
Senator KENNEDY. I think that is the spirit
in which we have had these hearings. It seems to me that from both these
witnesses and others, Gottlieb knows the information and can best respond,
and we are going to make every effort in the Senate Health Committee to
get Mr. Gottlieb to appear, and we obviously look forward to cooperating
with Senator Inouye and the other members of the committee in getting the
final chapter written on this, but we want to thank you very much for your
Senator INOUYE. The hearing will
stand in recess, subject to the call of the Chair.
12:12 p.m., the hearing was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.]
A: Testing and Use of Chemical and Biological Agents by the
B: Documents Referring to Discovery of Additional MKULTRA
C: Documents Referring to